Interview with Keith O. Raymond - 1979Done by: C.E.HQuestion: I want to get some information about Centreville, your first recollections. When would that be? The fish plants and so on.Answer: You want the history of Centreville when it first started.Question: Trout Cove, yeah.Answer: Trout Cove. It was changed to the name Centreville about, I guess, approximately 1918 or something like that. There's a gentleman by the name of Boutilier, Alfred Boutilier, who came up from down around the St. Margaret's Bay area and he started buying fish up in Shelburne Cove which after a year or so up there, he moved down to Centerville and he started building a plant there. He had a canning plant and he had a building and made his own tin in sheets, made his own cans and he put up chicken haddie, kippers, smoked kippers, olds they called them, and they also had the salt fish fin haddie. Question: Was that Alfred's father?Answer: Alfred's father.Question: Major.Answer: Yeah, they had their own generators, their own electricity at that time.Question: Can you remember his plant?Answer: Oh Yeah.Question: When was he there generating electricity?Answer: He was there from about 1910 and he passed away in 1912 then when he passes away, the bank took itover and it was sold to an outfit, Martin Wile, out of Boston.Question: Martin Wile?Answer: Yeah. Out of Boston. And then Charlie Morton bought it from Martin Wile and Charlie Morton ran the plant from about 1926 to about around 1930 and was sold to Lunenburg Sea Products out of Lunenburg and they ran it from 1930 to 1947 and I bought it in 1947 from Lunenburg Sea Products.Question: Lunenburg Sea Products, then, was in competition with Maritime Fish, was it?Answer: Ah, Right. And then in 1946, maritime Fish and Lunenburg Sea Products was amalgamated into what is National Sea Products then- now.Question: Do you remember Boutillier having coasting vessels or steamers going?Answer: Yes, he had.. he built.. he had the coastalboat named " The Centerville" which was built in Centerville and then he had another one called "The Frances B", that would be named after his wife, that would be Alfred's mother, and she was aslo built there in Centerville and they ran from saint John to Centerville taking his products to Saint John and Bringing food back like flour. He had a general store there too.Question: I see. So the plant thata he originally owned was located where your plant.Answer: Is now.Question: Is now.Answer: YeahQuestion: What about... when did scallops come to Centerville?Answer: Well, scallops came to Centreville about 1922. My father started that there in Centerville. He had, I recall, a boat named the " Henry Ford". It was only a small boat, It was only 42 to 45 feet long.Question: And would that be like a trawl boat or is that the kind of boat it was?Answer: No it was the same as these boat are now... SmallQuestion: Decked over?Answer: Yeah she was decked over. Then in 1925, Berle Outhouse, that would be Pearly Outhouse's father, built him a bigger boat and it was named the "Keith & Robinson". She was about, oh I suspose, what 45 feet long and decked over, f course. And she had an Acadia engine in her, a big Acadia engine. I don't know how.Question: A one Lunger?Answer: No, no. She was four cylinder. A big high thing and developed probably 50 horse power.Question: Do you remember what kind of gear those boats towed then?Answer: Now they had when they were first starting out, three drads attached to a bar. Three, three, three foot drags.Question: Those drags would be bigger than todays?Answer: Yeah they were three foot. Today I think they are only two and a half..two and a half feet. Thay were three feet drags or approximatelyeven three and a half feet, they were quite a bit bigger, well, notbigger then then they are now but they only had three to a bar and then after that, they made the drags smaller, two are a half feet and as they put five on a bar, six on a bar and you know they've go more power to two more bottom.Question: And so when he first started fishing with that " henry Ford",your father didn't fish himself.Answer: yeah he did.Question: Oh did he? When he first started fishing then with the " Henry Ford", was that the kind of gear he was fishing with three on a bar?Answer: yeah, and they had the heist, a big five hourse power heist on deck, either Acadia, made by the Acadia Gas Engines or the Lunenburg place, the Lunenburg Foundary.Question: Did that have a separate power source?Answer: Oh yes, it was a heistQuestion: It's own engine like a donkey engine?Answer: Yeah, and tured a wench or the hoist on deck. Yeah, that was separate from the main engine.Question: When did the powering hoists for the main engine come along then?Answer: the Powering hoists for the main engine came along about, oh, it was quite late because after the donkey engines, we got the car engines to pout on to fun the heist, four cylinder chevs or four cylinder Fords and running from the main engine, that didn't come along until about, oh, it must have been 1947 or 48 when they powered off trhe main engine.Question: So this was about 1922 or 1923 when your father tarted fishing scallops in Centerville? Answer: Yeah.Question: Was there much activity then in the scallop fishery in Digby?Answer: Well,it was a good as and better than lobstering or groundfish longlining, and they shipped all the scallops to the states in Kegs, we called the kegs, or barrels, they held, well the barrels we got made from bealer and baxter uo the valley held about 130 lbs. And the ones made down here by H. T. Warne held about 112 to 115 lbs. They were sold in the states by the gallon. We got paid so much per American gallon.Question: Do you remember what kind of price there was?Answer: I remember $ 5 a gallon was a big price. Normally, it would be around possibly $3 a gallon. $5 a gallon I recall once they got a cheque from one of the commission agents and they got $5 a gallon. That was a big price.Question: And were there buyers at that time buying that scallops?Answer: Here?Question: yesAnswer: No, every fisherman shipped their own. We shipped or there must heav been ten or twelve commission agents on Boston fish pier.Question: Do you rememberwho any of those people were?Answer: Well, i used to go and get the fishingmen to ship to Reda Fisheries and if i got fishermen ship their scallops to Reda Fisherie, she would pay me $0.50 for every barrel that she recived from the fishermen but they were Reda Fisheries, Roland Solven, Denson Hardy, R.A. Kelly, oh there's so many more.Question: So when you were going around getting fishermen to ship to Reda, how old were you?Answer: I was about 12 years old.Question: twelve years old. And was your father shipping at that time?Answer: yeah a couple of boats.Question: Did he operate more that one boat in the scallop fishery?Answer: Oh yeah, There was three.Question: So there was the Keith & Robinson"Answer: There was " Keith & Robinson" and then after the " Keith & Robinson", the"Keith & Robinson" got lost off Yarmouth, he built two more, the "DemilleG." and the "Gerald D", and what was the other one'e name, I think it was the "Teraplane".Question: And they were all involved in the scallop fishery?Answer: Yes, fishing out of Centerville. Of course, the season in those days was from the !st of october to the last of April. There wasn't any summers.Question: When warmal first started fishing, there wouldn't have been any season at all?Answer: No.Question: i mane legal season?Answer: No he didn't go out in the Bay of Fundy. He just drug here in the basin.Question: Was your father, then, the first one to fish in the Bay of fundy?Answer: Out of Centerville. One of the first ones.Question: There wasn't anybody else in Centervillefishing scallops?Answer: NoQuestion: But did Warmal fish in the Bay of Fundy at all?Answer: Oh yes, after he went out in the Bay of Fundy after he got some more heavier gear, When he first started out, he used only one drag and then after he got the three drag bar, the he went out in the Bay of Fundy.Question: Do you remember the name of his boat that he started scalloping on?Answer: No, I don'tQuestion: But that would have been about 1921 or 1922?Answer: yeah, around that. 1920 1921.Question: We were talking about season. There was a limitation out on when you could fish scallops.Answer: That, i , there wasn't any limitation in thise years. But then they did come out with a season around, well let's see, around 1925 or 26, the they came out with a season.Question: Would there have been quite a few people involved by 25 or 26?Answer: Yes, ther was quite a few scallop boats.Question: When you were twelveand you were going around trying to get fishermento ship to Reba, wht year would that have been?Answer: That was in 29,30,31,32,33. There were ten scallop boat out of Centreville.Question: That's Charlie Morton, Sr., that owned the Boutilier plant?Answer: Yeah, that would be Darrell Morton's Father.Question: Right.Answer: And Gidneys-Ralph Gidney had a boat, Kenneth Gidney had a boat, Lee Wescott had a boat, Nels Kelley had a Boat, Cecil Dakin had one, Robbie Morehouse had one.Question: So were there as many scallopers out of Centreville at that time as there were out of Digby?Answer: Yes, there was at that time. Around well this was around 30, I guess,32 or 33.Question: You mentioned that the scallops were shipped in barrels. Did they all go to the Boston market or did any go to places in Nova Scotia from Cetreville?Answer: No, they all went to the Boston market and they all went to the Boston maket because they tried the New York maket once or twice and they always got shafted in New York so they stuck the Commission agents in Boston and they were pretty honest about them and they had the commission agent charge them so much for selling them.Question: What about selling in Halifax or Lunenburg or Saint John? Any Answer: No, Well, there was a market there but they didn't.Question: Nobody from Centreville made a business of shipping there?Answer: No.Question: How did the scallops get shipped from Centreville?Answer: We brought them up on the truck.Question: Did every fisherman bring his own up?Answer: No, we used to truck the other fishermen's scallops. I think we charged them $0.50 a barrel freight up. The train would leave here quarter after two, the train from Halifax going to Yarmouth. We put them on the train, go down and they'd be put on the Boston boat, the "S.S Yarmouth" and they'd be in the market in Boston the next morning at eight o'clock. They'd leave here quarter after two and they'd be in the market eight o'clock the next morning.Question: And that ship ran Yarmouth to Boston every evening?Answer: No, no, no, no. Every..I think three times a week. Question: Three times a week. So that's when the scallops were shipped.Answer: Right.Question: Were they iced?Answer: No, no.Question: What.Answer: In the wintertime they weren't iced. But in the spring of the year we would put them in begs and ice them and we used toQuestion: But most of the shipping was done in the winter when it was cold.Answer: We used to freeze some in the summer months, I mean in the spring of the year. We used to put them in gallon boxes, wooden boxes that held a gallon, eight pounds, and take them down to Yarmouth into cold storage and they were frozen for us down there.Question: I see. When you say the spring of the year, how late did the season stay open?Answer: April 30th.Question: April 30th. So by April 30th, it was too warm to ship them the normal way?Answser: Yeah, but anyway, the season was closed.Question: So April 15th, would they beAnswer: Well, it would be too warm then, an, well, from the 1st of April it probably would be the month of April because you know they couldn't put them in a barrel.Question: When did the first buyers get into the scallop business?Answer: The first buyers got here….they came in at about after the war. It was ….General Sea Foods used to buy here out of Halifax and of course, Maritimes Fish bought scallops here and Vincent Snow. That would be, when was that, and during the war, no even during the was there were buyers here. I imagine the buyers got into the act, got into buying them around, oh possibly around 1940.Question: When did you first buy scallops?Answer: Oh, let me see, well, I first bought scallops about 47.Question: That was after you came back from Montreal?Answer: Yeah, when I started the fish plant.Question: When you started the fish plant.Answer: when I took over my father's fish plant.Question: Right. Up until 1938 or 39, had you been actively getting fishermen to sell to some particular Answer: Commission agents? Question: Commission agent?Answer: Yeah.Question: And that was up until the time you left in 38 or 39?Answer: Yes.Question: That was the way it was done?Answer: That was the way it was done. They were all shipped to, well, I would say, 80% were shipped to.Question: And their weren't buyers like we have today. Their weren't buyers who..Answer: No.Question: owned boats or had shares in boats and Answer: Well Frank Anderson owned boats here, yes, and George Morrell had three or four boats.Question: That would be Earl's Father?Answer: Earl's father, yeah. And Frank B, or Ian's grandfather.Question: Frank was the owner of Maritime Fish.Answer: No, Frank was the manager of Maritime Fish. His father before him, who was Called Shorten Anderson, before they started the fish plant and Maritime Fish took it over and they had a plant here and one up in Canso.Question: I see. Was Maritime Fish owned here or somewhere else? Frank Anderson must have had an interest. Answer: Yeah, he had an interest in it and it was owned by…Question: And H.B. Short?Answer: H.B. Short.Question: Would there have been somebody outside of Digby whoAnswer: Yes, Connors, Hal Connor's father.Question: Connor Brothers Connors? Answer: No, no.Question: Hal Connors of National Sea?Answer: Hal Connors and Boutilier.Question: Alfred Boutiliers?Answer: No, no. No, another Boutilies there in Halifax.Question: The Boutilier that owns Boutilier's Fish Market?Answer: No, it was another Boutilier. It was Hal's father and this Boutilier that owned Maritime Fish.Question: How much how many scallops did these fishermen catch in those early days? What would have been a reasonable catch forAnswer: Well, a normal day, probably three barrels, four barrels.Question: That would be three to four hundred pounds? Answer: Ah, four, about five hundred pounds. That's four barrels.Question: And what would the boats have been worth? Answer: Boats at the time was worth…My father had one built the "Demille G" he had it built down in Cape St. Mary's, $350, and he put a St. Lawrence engine in her which was another $400 or $500. I suppose $1,500. Question: And the price they got for the scallops?Answer: Well, it varied. $3 a Gallon which would be about $0.40 a pound or $.0.35 Question: So they were grossing $12 to $ 15 a day on their catch?Answer: Well, if they had four barrel, they would have, what, five hundred pounds, so that would be about $200 a day.Question: I thought you said $3 a gallon, $30 a barrel.Answer: No, I said, $3 a gallon.Question: Oh, $3 a gallon. Sorry.Answer: And they held about twelve to thirteen gallons and the Baxter and Bealer barrels held about fourteen or fourteen and a half gallons.Question: What grounds did the different…did the Centreville boats fish on the same fishing ground as the boats out of here?Answer: No, the boats, well the boats, our boats in Centreville used to fish off Sandy Cove ground there up off of Gulliver's Head, I mean, between Centreville and up off of Gulliver's Head, and, of course, the Digby boats would come down off Gulliver's Head but they never came down to Sandy Cove.Question: And how far off shore did they fish?Answer: Oh, I don't know. Two to three miles. Two miles.Question: Where all those boats form Centreville deck over like your father's boats? Answer: No, no. The last two, last three boats father had weren't decked over. They just had the table and were open.Question: They were big, kind of extended Cape Island boats? Answer: Yeah, they were only about 42 or 45 feet.Question: But the normal….all those fellows were fishing with boats that were capable of hauling the three…the bar with three or more drags on it?Answer: Yeah, them you see, what they would do with the boats during the off season, they would take the table off them and the scallop gear and would go longlining, trawl fishing. Question: You mean trawl fishing by longlining not longlining like the long liners on the South shore?Answer: No, no. They'd go haddocking or haking or something.Question: When did the scallop fishermen start going further a field looking for other scallop beds?Answer: What do you mean, off shore here or in the Bay of Fundy?Question: Offshore, in the Bay of Fundy, there are other areas in the Bay of Fundy than just two or three miles off shore, aren't there?Answer: Well, oh yes. Well, when they….see years ago, when it was closed, the season was closed from the 1st of May to the 1st of October, that meant the whole Bay of Fundy. And now, they changed the law. Now after the 1st of May, they can go six miles out.Question: Right.Answer: That never was before.Question: Yes. Answer: It was closed, period.Question: Right. But now they fish for scallops down off Lurcher and, in Fact, out on Georges Bank and Browns and so on.Answer: Well, they didn't go to out Georges Bank, out boats here didn't go out to Georges Bank until, gracious, I mean these small boats didn't go out there probably until 1975.Question: Do you remember who the first fellow was to find the Beds on Georges Bank?Answer: Darrel Morton out of Centreville in 1947.Question: He found it?Answer: He went out there, drug scallops. Fred Snow was the captain and there was Darrell. Answer: No, that's Floyd. Question: That's Floyd.Answer: Fred was his brother. And he went out there, he and the crew…there was Fred, Darrel, Lornie Titus, a Dugas fellow. I've got it home. I forget…Question: And did they go more than once, or…Answer: Ah, they only went…I think they made…it in was in September. I was talking to Lornie the other day. It was in September and they,…I don't know whether he said they made one trip or two trips. Anyway..Question: Why didn't they keep going?Answer: Well, of course, the winter, the bad weather was coming on and they were smaller boats and no power in those days.Question: YeahAnswer: Not that much power. I think she was a 60 horse power caterpillar.Question: Well, now at that time, there was no scalloping done around Nova Scotia except in this area.Answer: That's right.Question: So, nobody else was fishing on Georges Bank, in the Bay of Fundy or anywhere else?Answer: No, no. Question: Did that Morton Boat or anyone go back to Georges Bank after that, after 47?Answer: No, he didn't go back, no. No, no one from this area went back. Then they started Lawrence Sweeney and I forget the fellow's name, Beck? He was one of the first ones, the old "Barbara Joe" I believe her name was. He fished out of Lunenburg or out of Yarmouth, I don't know.Question: I see. When did Lawrence's boat start going out there?Answer: Lawrence's boat started going out there about, oh, 50.Question: 1950?Answer: Yeah.Question: Were they big boats like the current ones? Answer: No, they weren't big boats like the current ones. See they'd send them out there. No, Lawrence started building these 100 foot ones, what are they, 105 feet. They haven't changed the design much. And they started building those bigger boats in 55 or 56, because some of those boats that Lawrence has now are 30 years old or better.Question: Were they using the Digby gear when they first went out there?Answer: No, they used the offshore gear.Question: Who designed or developed that?Answer: I don't know. I would… it must have been designed down in Lunenburg.Question: So, as far as your memory goes, except for that Morton boat, nobody form this area went to Georges between 1947 until…Answer: No, I don't know. I don't know, 1975, or 1970's. Probably the 1970's. Could have been a bit earlier than 1975, the 1970'sQuestion: In the meantime, the season here opened up so that it was a full year, they could fish all year around?Answer: Yeah, I forget. I don't recall what year they did open it up outside six miles.Question: And I was asking you before about the shucking. Had you seen a scallop, well, of course, the scalloping started about as early as you can remember. How did they know there were scallops there at that point, before they starting fishing for them?Answer: Well, they knew when they'd get scallops on their trawl. I mean, when they were hauling trawls, some of the scallops would bite on the hook or you know, probably a bucket of scallops on their trawl. What they did down at Centreville, they couldn't shell them all out at sea, because of then smaller boats and there was a bunch of scallops so they used to bring them in and shell them on land or in the fish plant and then the shells were taken up and ground up for chicken feed.Question: Where was that grinding done?Answer: Right there in Centreville, right by my father's house. It's burnt down now. Right there in the field in back of the house. I have pictures of piles of scallop shells, fifteen feet deep and they used to grind them up for chicken feed and they had a very good market. In fact about 1977-78, we brought some scallops ashore and shelled them in the plant and I said well, I must get a grinder and grind the Department of Agriculture told me there was too much calcium in the shells. So apparently the chickens must be different in '75 then they were in '25.Question: As far as you know, it has always been permitted to shuck them ashore?Answer: As far as I …unless they made changes since we did it. It has to be a licensed plant, of course. You know, like where you shell your clams. Question: When ….in those early days, was all the shucking done ashore or did they do any?Answer: No, the only shucking done ashore was what they couldn't shuck while they were out there.Question: So they did it while they were fishing and then what they had left over theyAnswer: Yeah, because they came in when it blew in the winter time and they would take the scallops out. Probably wouldn't get out for two days and they would shell them ashore.Question: Did they, when they caught the scallops then, did they just dump them in the hold as they do now?Answer: Yeah.Question: They didn't put them in baskets or bin or anything so that could be handled?Answer: No.Question: What happened to the fleet in Centreville? You had twelve boats or so.Answer: We had twelve boats. Well, the scallops were scarce there and they went and converted. Boats got old and peple got out of it. Fellows got out of it and then they went and got the fish draggers which were bigger draggers now, so it just petered out.Question: Did your..did you buy scallops in Centreville in your plant?Answer: Oh, yes.Question: But your father never bought scallops there?Answer: Ah, no, they used to shop them. Question: Your father was a buyer too, though, he bought other fish?Answer: Yeah, everyone shipped scallops.Question: When you got into the business of buying scallops, did you have boats fishing for scallops out of Centreville?Answer: Well, we didn't get into, let's see, 47, there weren't any boats scalloping out of Centerville.Question: You didn't really start buying scallops until…Answer: Until about, well, I started buying scallops when I bah the first "Kathy & Janice", about 1953.Question: I see, so she fished for ground fish in the summer.Answer: She fished for scallops in the winter and we tied her up for the summer months. She didn't even…Question: Oh, she didn't fish?Answer: No.Question: WhenAnswer: A.F. Theriault built her for me. She was about 45 feet long and he charged me, she was built in 53, $1,50 to build her, and I put a Dodge marine engine in her, which was another thousand dollars. The whole deal only cost me about, the wench and the whole thing about 3,500. They went fishing and we were paying about $0.30 a pound for scallops. This was 1953 and scallops went down in the States down to $0.23 a pound, and they, well, they said it wasn't worth it when they went down to $0.26 a pound, they tied her up.Question: They tied her up. Did that boat eventually go fish dragging?Answer: That boat eventually went fish dragging and she fish dragged a number of years, then I sold her to Roy Condon.Question: At that point, in 1953, were you allowed to fish scallops only in the winter?Answer: Yes, as I recall, just from the first of October to the last of April.Question: While she was used by you commercially, did she always fish for scallops in the winter and ground fish in the summer?Answer: Yes. Yes.Question: Did you have other boats that were in the scallop fishery?Answer: Yeah, I had the "Melissa Jean". I had the "Melissa Jean".Question: She fished out of Centreville and did the same kind of thing, fished for scallops in the winter?Answer: Yeah, Yeah.Question: When was she built?Answer: She was built, the "Melissa Jean", she was built about oh, 1956.Question: Yeah. And she kept fishing until the mid sixties?Answer: She kept fishing until scallops got very scarce. They were allowed to go in the summer months at that time and scallops were scarce and I sold the "Melissa Jean' around 62 or 63.Question: But she was fishing all year around for scallops was she?Answer: Ah, in the latter years, in 60,59,60,61, till I sold her, she was fishing those years all the year around for scallop, but three or four years part of that, she fished scallops in the winter months or during the season and fish dragged.Question: What would have been a normal daily catch for her?Answer: What, Scalloping?Question: In 1960?Answer: Scalloping?Question: Yeah.Answer: In the summertime? Question: Yeah.Answer: Ah,Question: Or winter.Answer: Or winter. Of course, it varies. See, they had to go outside the three mile limit, well, in the summer-time, that's why they were only getting possibly a hundred pounds.Question: That's why you let her go.Answer: That's why I had to. Well, scallops at that time were only about $0.60 a pound, $0.50 a pound, and there was no way they could…Question: Did you have other boats that were in the scallop fishery?Answer: At that time? Well, I had, then I built some more boats. Built the Kathy & Janice II", the "Freda Grace"> "Sahyis" and I had another one there….The "Freda Grace", the "Kathy & Janice", oh what was that name of that other boat? "Melissa jean"…I had them anyway.Question: Did they all fish for scallops at some time or other?Answer: Yes.Question: They all had dual licenses as we call them now?Answer: Yeah. Yeah.Question: And then the next generation of boats were the….Answer: Were the, well, the 65 footers.Question: Yeah. And you had two, just two of those, after the "Sahyis".Answer: Yeah. Well, the "Melissa Jean" she was a seiner.Question: Yeah. And the 65 footers had dual licenses in both cases?Answer: Yeah, Yeah.Question: And what would be a reasonable catch today for one of those boats now, a 65 footer?Answer: Scalloping?Question: Yeah.Answer: Out of here? Two hundred pounds would be the maximum. A long day, too.Question: When that crew, the Morton crew, went to Georges Bank in 1947, Keith tells me that according to Lorne Tius, who is still alive, that there were American fishing boats there dragging for scallops along side them. Subsequently, this fellow (he thinks his name is Beck) from Lunenburg went out there a few years later with a larger boat and he likely fished along with American fisherman on those grounds.